tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post9149111697232927106..comments2024-02-14T14:53:03.810-07:00Comments on Καθολικός διάκονος: Adding to the confusion and widening the divideDeacon Scotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01385969740195992108noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-33107445296715502452010-10-16T18:19:23.282-06:002010-10-16T18:19:23.282-06:00Great post. I just wanted to add a few things.Firs...Great post. I just wanted to add a few things.<br><br>First, a very minor point, the <i>It Gets Better</i> project was started up, not by Bp. Robinson, but by Dan Savage, an erstwhile Catholic turned syndicated sex columnist slash gay activist.<br><br>Second, the project's anti-religious bent probably stems from the anti-religion of many gay men and lesbian women, many of whom experienced bullying in religious schools, and most of whom perceive a connection between disapproval of homosexual acts and disapproval of homosexuals themselves. (To oversimplify drastically, they can't be entirely wrong about that, since the connection is predicted by the classical laws of association.)<br><br>Third, whether or no sexual orientation is or should be a component of identity, it certainly makes a great difference to how, as a Catholic, you live the life God has given you.<br><br>And it's precisely this difference, and not the bullying or disapproval, that makes it hard to be gay and Catholic. For heterosexuals in the Church, the classic vocations help to fill out the future, but for gay men and women, for whom the vocations are forbidden, the future is a great void, and it's this void that drives and keeps them away.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-18790949574088646342010-10-16T18:36:25.949-06:002010-10-16T18:36:25.949-06:00Thank you for the background and clarification reg...Thank you for the background and clarification regarding the <i>It Gets Better Initiative</i>. I was utterly unfamiliar with its origins apart from Bishop Robinson, whose involvement is only known to me through Deacon Greg's post.<br><br>I would offer a few clarifications of my own. Priesthood and/or religious life are vocations, which mean they are positive calls to those states of life. So, religious life and priesthood are not places for people who would rather be married. Second, one's sexual orientation does not preclude one from either priesthood or religious life except perhaps in a few dioceses and within a limited number of religious orders. <br><br>Priesthood and religious life are not places for sexually unsettled people, men or women, heterosexual or homosexual. What counts is the positive vocation, which is discerned not just by the individual, but the community, which has various ways of doing this. One who has a positive vocation to priesthood and/or religious life also knows her/himself, to include one's sexual orientation, and is okay with who they are. Hence, what matters more than one's sexual orientation is one's affective maturity.<br><br>To wit: the Church has no shortage of homosexual priests who serve us well and likely no shortage of homosexual women religious, too, who also serve us selflessly because this what they are called to do, not because they perceived this as the only option.Dcn Scott Dodgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09994604395739905637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-54133885945816643072010-10-16T18:45:40.943-06:002010-10-16T18:45:40.943-06:00At any rate, the primary and essential vocation is...At any rate, the primary and essential vocation is baptism: the universal call to holiness.Fredhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01262662173303042998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-12732529701154488962010-10-16T19:10:34.625-06:002010-10-16T19:10:34.625-06:00Indeed, Fred. It is important never to lose sight ...Indeed, Fred. It is important never to lose sight of the One who asks for nothing less than our whole selves. He can ask this because He gives himself to us totally and without reserve.Dcn Scott Dodgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09994604395739905637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-57172282226304023292010-10-17T05:47:52.888-06:002010-10-17T05:47:52.888-06:00I have not written about this at all or even comme...I have not written about this at all or even commented on any blogs about it... but I will here.<br><br>For what it is worth, I have had positive feelings towards many of the It Gets Better videos that I have watched. Rev. Susan Russell, an Episcopal priest in Pasadena, CA, for example, made an excellent one.<br><br>I do not know Bp. Gene personally, but know many people who do. He did once email me after one of my friends asked him to pray for me; I was deeply touched by the words that he sent to me. I have never had anything other than the utmost respect for him.<br><br>Which is why it was all the more shocking and distressing to click onto the video and to hear those words. It caused me to stop the video actually! <br><br>Adding the the confusion and widening the divide indeed. God have mercy on us all.Franhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07181529277715646835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-79242428809439437282010-10-17T07:42:08.841-06:002010-10-17T07:42:08.841-06:00My thinking on this subject is probably pretty dis...My thinking on this subject is probably pretty distorted, so bear with me.<br><br><a href="http://www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm?blog_id=2&id=81913739-3048-741E-5405178212524077" rel="nofollow">Fr. James Martin</a> and others have pointed to the same issue I brought up. There are definitely theological troubles with how I posed the problem, but however theologically misguided it may be, it's a very real aspect of why gay men and lesbian women leave and/or stay away from the Church. In saying this, I don't want to criticise anyone: I just want to raise awareness of a fly in the pastoral ointment which will hopefully someday be addressed.<br><br>To digress on the 2005 Instruction for a moment, I would say that "transitory" homosexual tendencies were meant to contrast with "deep-seated" ones: so if a man's homosexual tendencies are not transitory, i.e., if he's gay, then his tendencies are deep-seated. In particular, since the instruction excluded men with deep-seated homosexual tendencies from the priesthood, it must also exclude gay men from the priesthood. Again, in saying this, I don't want to criticise anyone: I just want to show how I interpret the instruction so you know more about where my observation was coming from.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-646488356992184752010-10-17T07:55:14.128-06:002010-10-17T07:55:14.128-06:00Don't get me wrong, I understand that it is di...Don't get me wrong, I understand that it is difficult for many homosexual people to remain Catholic. Again, as to the issue you bring up, I'm not sure that a lot of dioceses or religious orders get too hung up on a single Vatican instruction. Rather, they are concerned about affective maturity. For one seriously considering and being considered for ordained ministry, even deacons, there are well-established and effective ways to determine suitability on these grounds.<br><br>It is important to keep in mind that when it comes to the nature and purpose of human sexuality, homosexual people are not the only ones the Church challenges. The Church challenges single heterosexual people to remain chaste. The Church also challenges married couples to live marriage chastely, which means being open to life, keeping the transcendental (i.e., unitive) and existential (i.e., procreative) dimensions present in their love-making.<br><br>To isolate Church teaching on homosexuality and see it as something apart from the magisterium's entire take on human sexuality is to reduce and distort, even if unintentionally.Dcn Scott Dodgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09994604395739905637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-35530772308252988692010-10-17T19:57:40.872-06:002010-10-17T19:57:40.872-06:00Deacon,You and the other heterosexual Catholics gi...Deacon,<br>You and the other heterosexual Catholics give yourselves far too much credit if your "Charity" is dependent on the absolute anonymity of gays, which is what Benedict demands.<br><br>Your Charity means nothing. Creating a society in which the only protection against unjust discrimination for gays is lifelong secrecy and self-enforced ostracism is genocide in all but accidence.Frankhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09897269955436636225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-86697108736707389392010-10-22T07:31:04.368-06:002010-10-22T07:31:04.368-06:00@ Frank: "Gay ex-Catholic militant secularist...@ Frank: <i>"Gay ex-Catholic militant secularist."</i> Seriously?<br><br>You are invited to point my attention towards the document in which Pope Benedict XVI demands of all homosexuals that they live in absolute anonymity.<br><br>Also: In what way does Dcn Scott's article convey the message that his or our charity is dependent on the homosexuals living anonymously?<br><br>FYI: Right now we are creating a society in which carefully questioning the homosexual lifestyle can get you an invite from the court. You will probably ask why, then, is it homosexuals that commit suicide? Maybe it takes a mature person with a stable identity and an integrated sexuality to withstand bullying, be it by homophobes or by the militant secular pro-gay lobby. Or maybe it doesn't. I'm just throwing it out there.Alipiushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07354181361476578154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-63440270822097590382010-10-31T15:20:01.101-06:002010-10-31T15:20:01.101-06:00Sometimes my morality is pretty simplistic. At its...Sometimes my morality is pretty simplistic. At its foundation: hurting people (animals, etc) is bad while loving is good. I wonder if we focus too much on the physical sex and miss the love involved. Are there deeper issues than my gross oversiplification? Yes. However it seems a good place to start.Sarahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17507403837131232567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-61054599804964403092010-10-31T16:58:21.476-06:002010-10-31T16:58:21.476-06:00The relationship between two people is certainly i...The relationship between two people is certainly important. I don't think the Church's teaching over-emphasizes the sexual dimension. It is important not to be reductive about sex, which is the biggest temptation.Dcn Scott Dodgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09994604395739905637noreply@blogger.com