tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post6197133180547002070..comments2024-02-14T14:53:03.810-07:00Comments on Καθολικός διάκονος: Political miscellania: A confessionDeacon Scotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01385969740195992108noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-62825329978447398062008-08-28T20:17:00.000-06:002008-08-28T20:17:00.000-06:00you almost persuade me to return to my own Democra...you almost persuade me to return to my own Democratic roots...Fredhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01262662173303042998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-88521857540045956842008-08-29T10:45:00.000-06:002008-08-29T10:45:00.000-06:00Thanks for this -- it is so helpful to me -- parti...Thanks for this -- it is so helpful to me -- particularly the link to the article on posturing/policy in the abortion debate. I hope your day is beautiful!Suzannehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11951438226869811270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-19908897615245311142008-08-29T11:23:00.000-06:002008-08-29T11:23:00.000-06:00Thanks, Suzanne. To me being loyal always means be...Thanks, Suzanne. To me being loyal always means being critical. To that end, on Sunday I watched Abp Chaput's interview with Raymond Arroyo and came away very disappointed because his remarks seemed to me be posture, not policy and his take on prudential judgment far too restrictive. Stated simply, it seems that he wants Catholics to be reduced to one issue voters, not overtly, but as a consequence of the logic he employs. This seems to me to stand in contrast to what we read in <i>Faithful Citizenship</i>. Nonetheless, this did not seem to keep him from being puzzled as to why he was not invited to give an invocation at the convention held in his city.<br><br>What I like about O'Brien's article is that in it he takes what seems to me to be a far more Catholic approach. This approach is not alien among our bishops, it just doesn't get the media attention that Abp Chaput, Abp Burke, and Bp Sheridan muster by their outspokenness.<br><br>If, using Abp Chaput's reasoning, I have to be able, on judgment day, to explain to an aborted child why I voted for a pro-choice candidate (which implies that I am responsible for the child's death despite working to end abortion), I must stand equally ready to explain to the mother, whose children were accidentally blown up in an unjust war, why I voted for a president who believes in pre-emptive force and engages in such wars; to the person who starved, etc. In other words, what Abp Chaput seems to be doing is insisting on a distorting reduction of proportional reason and prudential judgment. <br><br>To wit: I refuse to vote for a candidate simply because s/he agrees with me on abortion and marriage. I also will never vote for a candidate because s/he is pro-choice, or is mistaken about the nature of marriage. It seems to me that Christians in the U.S. have long been victims of such reductions.Dcn Scott Dodgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09994604395739905637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-30078526934973290782008-08-29T12:50:00.000-06:002008-08-29T12:50:00.000-06:00From where I sit there is no morally evil equivale...From where I sit there is no morally evil equivalent to abortion. Not just for the shear numbers of innocent lives that are taken, but also for the confusion it inflicts on society with respect to how we view who and what we are. That is a very sinister evil.<br><br>To say that you can vote for a pro choice candidate while working to end abortion strikes me as a contradiction, as that vote is perpetuating the very thing you say you are working to end.<br><br>Regarding Pelosi, I'm sympathetic to this view:<br><br> http://examinelife.blogspot.com/2008/08/sin-of-believing-in-sin.htmlStevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10478365664202149335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-31684694278904481932008-08-29T13:54:00.000-06:002008-08-29T13:54:00.000-06:00Steve:All cases in which innocent people are unjus...Steve:<br><br>All cases in which innocent people are unjustifiably killed are morally equivalent. On another issue, while I oppose the death penalty, it is not the moral equivalent to abortion and I have never made that argument. Again, I suggest reading O'Brien's article. Stated simply, the only way to end abortion, or to dramatically reduce the number of abortions, is not by a direct, frontal assault, which, even now, would not likely pass constitutional muster. The overturning of Roe v. Wade would not bring an end to abortion. In some states, it would make it more easily and legally available. <br><br>My position is not a contradiction. I state unhesitatingly that I have never, nor will I ever, vote for a candidate because s/he is pro-choice, but in spite of it. I also state that this has caused me on several occasions to vote across party lines. Without sounding too harsh, feel free to disagree, but don't mischaracterize my position by overly simplifying it, reducing it, or trying to make me say something I am not. To be clear: I am not voting to perpetuate something I work to end. It may have escaped your notice, but nobody is proposing to make abortions more accessible, or to liberalize abortion laws. The trend in recent years, even among many Dems, has been to place restrictions, like parental notification laws, making it illegal to cross state lines to obtain abortions, etc. All laws that seek to restrict abortion, like the ban on partial birth abortion, which, thank God, the Supreme Court upheld, making this illegal, have to pass constitutional review precisely because of Roe. So, in most instances, abortion is not even in the hands of Congress, but that of the courts.<br><br>Of course, who a president might appoint to the Supreme Court in the likelihood of a vacancy is a very good thing to look at when deciding for whom to vote. I am not sure who I am voting for yet. Suffice it to say, I will look at all factors and make a prudential judgment.<br><br>What confuses people is when important distinctions fail to be made and their moral reasoning is short-circuited by gross over-simplifications of issues made complex by living in a pluralistic democratic republic in which to vote is to accept reality as it is, not as it we'd like it to be, but in the hope and with the assurance that what we do matters. Again, it is not so much about ends, especially among Catholics, but about means. While we may never do evil that good may come of it, we do have to understand, if not accept, the givenness of certain realities and prudentially determine how best to bring about a more just society.Dcn Scott Dodgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09994604395739905637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-76020444768609264452008-08-29T13:55:00.000-06:002008-08-29T13:55:00.000-06:00Here's something from Archbishop Chaput that h...Here's something from Archbishop Chaput that has been troubling me:<br><br>"Obviously, we have other important issues facing us this fall: the economy, the war in Iraq, immigration justice. But we can’t build a healthy society while ignoring the routine and very profitable legalized homicide that goes on every day against America’s unborn children."<br><br>It troubles me because the issues that he lists do not include innocents who are or will be killed through wars instigated by a bellicose Commander in Chief...In other words, the way he frames the alternatives makes it seem as though we are dealing with lesser injustices, on the one hand, and murder, on the other. I am really and truly concerned about the blood of innocent victims that will indeed be spilled, if either candidate takes office. If a Church leader won't address my concern head-on, then he doesn't help me to find an answer to my dilemma, he only muddies the water for me. What am I to do? Try to estimate how many will die during the future presidency of each man and choose the one who will be responsible for fewer corpses? How can I possibly make such an estimate? There are so many unknowns. Besides, I really think that this sort of calculation would be cynical -- like an acceptance that well, so many are going to have to die in any case...Suzannehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11951438226869811270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-54647398692516410862008-08-29T14:22:00.000-06:002008-08-29T14:22:00.000-06:00Suzanne: You bring up several good issues. Taking ...Suzanne:<br><br> You bring up several good issues. Taking my lead from Abp Niederauer, it is not your bishop's job to tell for whom to vote. I know that you know that, I am not trying to be patronizing, just laying down something fundamental. It is his job, as the chief catechist and an authentic teacher of the faith, to teach you to reason morally and the objective content of what the church teaches and why, how these truths are rooted in reason. These two together are what constitute a properly formed conscience. So equipped, the judgment is yours. The very fact that you recognize that there are issues that are genuinely and unequivocally the moral equivalent of abortion shows that your conscience is properly formed, but it leaves you in a dilemma. I find myself in the same dilemma. <br><br>You are also correct insofar as such a calculation would be unadulterated utilitarianism, which we reject. For me, it is helpful to look at the extent to which the office actually bears on the issue. For example, I am not interested in what the county mayor thinks about abortion. As mayor, s/he has no say. I am worried about where s/he stands on road maintenance, county rec facilities, law enforcement, penal issues at the county jail, the Meals on Wheels program, etc. Of course, the president has a lot to do with issues of war and peace and has some say on the issue of abortion. <br><br>Restricting our discussion to the office of president, I find it helpful to be realistic about what can be accomplished, the art of the possible. For example, if a candidate readily admits that pre-emptive wars are inherently unjust, then I can be pretty certain that as CinC no such wars will be started. On the other hand, a candidate may believe that life begins at conception and is opposed to abortion. The question here is what can that president do? The Supreme Court justice issue comes into play here and what the U.S. supports overseas. Because it is a constitutional issue, the president cannot enact, even if he had congressional support, a moral abortion policy, setting aside what effects that might have (referring to O'Brien). This is all without addressing embryonic stem cell gathering by immoral means.<br><br>I don't know if that helps, but it ain't easy.Dcn Scott Dodgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09994604395739905637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-21799434284305745162008-08-29T14:54:00.000-06:002008-08-29T14:54:00.000-06:00So, you caught that I was only half-joking when I ...So, you caught that I was only half-joking when I asked how many beers I'd need to buy you, huh?<br><br>All of this does help. Then there is also my gut, which points me toward the less volatile person who is more respectful towards his peers and underlings. That counts for something. In times of crisis, a person's temper becomes a crucial factor.Suzannehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11951438226869811270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-42129513273255453772008-08-29T14:56:00.000-06:002008-08-29T14:56:00.000-06:00In January we can have few beers and review our ch...In January we can have few beers and review our choices. I think you have a wise gut!Dcn Scott Dodgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09994604395739905637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8254272216866737058.post-46322925413787084922008-08-29T15:15:00.000-06:002008-08-29T15:15:00.000-06:00I would like to respond, but have too much to say ...I would like to respond, but have too much to say and I'm stuck with just my phone. More next week...Stevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10478365664202149335noreply@blogger.com